Ardmore Residents vs. Car Dealerships....again
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Why is simple: there is another car dealership that glows on residential and that is Ardmore Infiniti on Lancaster Avenue - and that glow despite "how wonderful" it was all supposed to be, does indeed (like a comment on Main Line Times website says) glow all the way to Woodside and Montgomery Avenue - I actually noticed it myself one night a few weeks ago at night when I was at the light on Woodside and Montgomery facing the Exxon Station. I couldn't believe how bright it was. Also like that comment says (and I hope that person will register and post here), Toyota should have bigger fish to fry right now making cars safe, right? All of the car dealerships seem to be going to that "glow" effect. The dealerships across from Ardmore Worst Shopping Center are pretty bright too. But at least there while garish, it is not so bad as the car dealerships that start on the other side of the Bernicker Lot. Those car dealerships lot lights are so bright -- too bright. While I can't dispute what Christine from Ardmore Initiative says in the article about trade-offs when residential is so close to business districts, it seems to me that the trade-offs are not fair. It seems to me when it comes to things like light pollution, that the residents tend to get the short end of the stick. And while it is true that Toyota has been very generous to the community with (for example) lending their space for non-profit events, and that I am pretty sure the Paul family are still amazingly generous in other charitable circles, that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Living near car dealerships is not easy, but these lights only make things more unpleasant. It makes me think again of the overpriced birdbath planned for Bryn Mawr Trust at Ardmore Ave and Lancaster: forget about the fact that I still think that is a waste of money unless Bryn Mawr Trust wants to pay for it (including maintenance), I wonder if we would have had to have that new gateway if both ends of Ardmore didn't represent an auto mall? And add the Ardmore Redevelopment Plan and all the other infill development proposed, what will the sum of ALL that extra lighting look like for the Ardmore of the future? Oh it'll be a "bright" future all right.... So unfortunately, as much as I like both Christine from AI and Mike Silver, in this case, I am going to side with neighbors and say no I don't think there should be quite so much light. I also like what that Chatham Road resident said about illuminated car dealerships being like giant illuminated billboards. I would now open the floor up for comment and discussion if there are any takers. I will note that Ross Weiss is a busy beaver again - I see him in this article and one about turf fields for Agnes Irwin (he was Mr. Shipley not so long ago).
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I just want to encourage everyone to come out to tonight's planning commission meeting. This is an issue that affects all of Ardmore, not just Ardmore Toyota's immediate neighbors.
Planning Commission Regular Monthly Meeting Date: 4/5/2010
Time: 6:30 PM Location: Township Administration Bldg - 2nd Floor Board Room 75 East Lancaster Ave Ardmore, Pennsylvania 19003-2323
Item # 5 on Agenda: "AMENDMENT PLAN - 213 E. Lancaster Avenue, Ardmore, Ardmore Toyota, LD# 3501AA, Ward 8. A proposal to illuminate a portion of the existing façade of the building."
Carla, Thank you for posting this. I am one of the neighbors that is directly affected by Ardmore Toyota lights. However, I think that this issue indirectly affects everyone in Ardmore. Any advice and support that anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated. I want us to be as prepared as possible for the next meeting. Thank you, Valerie
Valerie I don't know what to tell you. You need the commissioners on your side of the issue and not wishy washy and all knowing as they have been. The planning commission needs to know what you are talking about and why. You should be writing letters to the editor of the Main Line Times and photographing the lights at different times of day to take to meetings to show commissioners. The neighbors need to go en masse to meetings. I would also suggest e-mailing the commissioners, but e-mail them ALL, not just one, and understand that out of all the Ardmore commissioners, the only one who will probably go to bat for you will be Cheryl Gelber.
I also suggest you look at other Toyota dealerships and check out their lights, etc.
As you rally your immediate neighbors, talk to neighbors on surrounding streets - because as you know those lights throw a LOT of light and I have been on streets at night that are really bright, and it's not the township street lights.
I would also get the Civic Associations involved. Where you are I would get Wynnewood Civic AND ArdWood to weigh in. You also might want to talk to Carl Watson about the technical aspect of the lighting and see if he has any suggestions.
But seriously turn out your neighbors consistently. These commissioners have to see bodies to get the joke.
And you are right, issues like this do affect everyone in Ardmore because of that little word called precedence.
One thing I am curious about is did Toyota put up lights they weren't approved for originally?
A group of you also might want to go talk to Christine Villardo at Ardmore Initiative and that Mary Grace Heiser or Scott Mahan in their Ardmore Business Association capacity. I would like to think if the ABA, AI and neighbors and civics put their heads together we could find a solution. (Or one would hope)
I am still a little amazed all things considered that Toyota dealerships would have time for crap like this given all the issues with their cars that has made the international news time and again...
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L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers/Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains.–Jean Jacques Rosseau. The Social Contract, 1762
One thing I am curious about is did Toyota put up lights they weren't approved for originally
You too, eh?
Looks to me like the old strategy of boiling a frog by turning up the heat slowly.
Taking things one step at a time: 'First let 'em adjust to the hideous facade of the building in it's dormant state, as well as the lights from the car lots. Once they've deadened their senses to those visual assaults, THEN we go after the big enchilada and try to set this sucker ablaze with light.'
Toyota Dealership
Tom Scott Toyota - Nampa, Idaho
Tom Scott Toyota is a 46,000 sq ft concrete tilt-up Toyota dealership located on Can-Ada and Franklin roads in Nampa, Idaho. It is only the second Toyota dealership in the U.S to showcase Toyota’s new design standards and acts as a prototype for future Toyota dealerships and renovations. The inside offers a comfortable open showroom, administrative offices, quick lube stations, service, and parts department. The outside displays modern architecture and design including stylish ACM panels and illuminating external panels to distinguish itself among surrounding dealerships.
Googling "toyota dealership design" brought that site up. Shows that yes, this is the new design standard and yes, the "illuminating external panels" are no doubt wired up and ready to go. I have no idea what an "ACM panel" is nor do I see anything "stylish" on the building.
If this seems bad in the relatively urban environs of suburban Philadelphia, imagine having one of these monstrosities plunked down in the heartland of Idaho...
"One thing I am curious about is did Toyota put up lights they weren't approved for originally"
"You too, eh?
Looks to me like the old strategy of boiling a frog by turning up the heat slowly.
Taking things one step at a time: 'First let 'em adjust to the hideous facade of the building in it's dormant state, as well as the lights from the car lots. Once they've deadened their senses to those visual assaults, THEN we go after the big enchilada and try to set this sucker ablaze with light.'"
It's interesting that you are both asking this question. It is my impression that the planning board was not aware of the facade when the dealership was built. When we went to a public meeting during their firsts attempt to have one of the lots rezoned as a used car lot, we brought up teh issue of the lit facade. At the time, it had much higher powered bulbs than it does now. The board seemed suprised to find out about the facade and Ardmore Toyota promised not to use it. In my opinion, at Monday night's meeting, Ardmore Toyota presented revisionist's history when they indiicated that no one had complained about lighting prior to them requesting to using to use facade lighting again ths year. It is no surprise that the issue of lit facade resurfaced. After all, the issue of the used car lot also resurfaced last year and they were granted the variance to use the lot closest to the SuperFresh as a used car lot.
I have found out that the City of Bend, Oregon is having similar lighting issues with a Toyota dealership. I left a message for that city planner. I have also requested an explanation of the codes and regulations that apply to the lighted facade. I like the idea of writing to all of the commissioners. What should I tell them, that the neighbors are against this? As a note, Jan Delllheim, our commissioner has been very supportive. She even set up a meeting with Toyota to see the light first hand from my neighbor's babies' room.
I do have a couple of questions that someone here might be able to answer. Isn't part of Ardmore a historic district, up to, and including Pennywise Thriftshop? Aren't there regulations about impact the viewsheds of historic districts (National Historic Preservation Act?) or doest that only apply to Federal actions?
Also, in looking at the township codes I found definitions view and viewshed, but not for visual impacts, but I did see mitigation measures for visual impacts. Is that because "visual impacts" are too subjective?
Ask Lori Salgonicoff @ LM Conservancy - it might only apply to Federal actions. As for the township codes missing things, HAH! are you surprised? I seem to remember when noise levels were discussed on some project - maybe Baldwin, can't remember. Anyway what I do remember is someone pointing out that Lower Merion allows greater noise levels then some major cities like New York.
Look, write ALL the commissioners, tell them the TRUTH. If that TRUTH is that neighbors are upset and against this, DO IT. I can tell you that you should hit all the commissioners because I have heard that township staff is recommending that the BOC not make any determinations on whether this lighting is appropriate until they see the actual facade lighting that is being proposed - you need these commissioners to see it through YOUR eyes and I would make ALL 14 of those commissioners to come visit you guys at night - and I would be interested to find out how new Ardmore Commissioner Steve Lindner behaves because thus far his performance has been underwhelming while his go to meeting outfits have been swell.
This is what I have recently learned: The original Toyota conditions of approval included requiring the exterior lighting plan to be approved by LMT. The approved lighting plan did not include any internal facade lighting. During construction, Toyota decided to install the wiring and facade light fixtures. The Pauls were told that LMT would not approve this lighting as an amendment to the approved lighting plan - that they would need seperate approval, so I guess that is what they are doing now.
Some in the township seem to think if the used car lot lighting is fixed you all won't care about the facade lighting or something like that? That is why you need to bother ALL of the commissioners. Your commissioner might be stepping up to the plate, but she is not known for her fortitude, and can be swayed - so you need the majority of the commissioners to see it your way from the start and be prepared to raise lots and lots of hell.
Keep up the pressure, write letters to the editor, speak out at every meeting you can, take photos and videos of the lights now as well as taking photos and videos of any other issues with these car dealerships. Document, document, document.
I doubt you will get everything you want because this township doesn't work that way. But hopefully you can get enough to make life livable again.
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L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers/Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains.–Jean Jacques Rosseau. The Social Contract, 1762
Question regarding:
"The original Toyota conditions of approval included requiring the exterior lighting plan to be approved by LMT. The approved lighting plan did not include any internal facade lighting. During construction, Toyota decided to install the wiring and facade light fixtures. The Pauls were told that LMT would not approve this lighting as an amendment to the approved lighting plan - that they would need seperate approval, so I guess that is what they are doing now."
Is it legal to install wiring and facade wall light fixtures without a permit? If not, how is that enforced? How do I follow up to find out where that was enforced?
Also, I agree that when the township decided to combine the two separate lighting issues, it became unclear what we were upset about.
To me it is cut and dry, I am upset about both issues. I am also upset about the lack of compliance with permits.
Valerie,
E-mail Bob Duncan about the lights going in without a permit. I would also quite honestly say that you and your neighbors should make a large showing field trip to the next regular BOC meeting (March 17th) and air all these issues. You have your right to public privilege and even if they try to only get a few of you to speak - whomever wants to speak, should. Please let us know what you hear back from Bob regarding the permit thing. I don't see how they should have gone in without a permit, but I am not a township codes official - I am sure they can explain it. And Bob is a pretty nice guy I think, so he should respond to you.
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L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers/Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains.–Jean Jacques Rosseau. The Social Contract, 1762
Thanks Carla, I did speak to someone in his office about the facade going in without a permit. She is looking into it for me. Please explain the BOC meeting to me. Can we go in there to discuss any issue that is a concern or do I have to contact my commissioner and have it put on the agenda?
As an aside the neighborhood has been very active since 2005 in trying to defend themselves against this big business. We are starting to feel like it is a futile battle. During the meetings they don't always let all of us speak if we don't have anything new to say. At the last meeting, we all got to present our "evidence" they went back to Ardmore Toyota and questioned them again, but we were not allowed to speak after that.
At the BOC or the planning commission meetings, are we allowed to present evidence in the form of a prepared PowerPoint presentation? My idea is to work with the neighbors to develop a power point presenation of all of the issues that we see and have different neighbors present different pieces of the presentation. We are a fairly close neighborhood and I think I could organize this via e-mail and a quick meeting bfore hand.
Is anyone here from Ardwood Civic Association? I sent them one or two e-mails on the subject, but have not heard back.
I am going to e-mail all of the commissioners, I want a well-thought-out letter and I want to make sure it addresses everyone's concerns, but I don't want to spend too much time researching it.
Valerie,
You can always speak about this at Public Privilege of the Floor at a regular monthly meeting, which is next week I believe. You have 3 minutes. Yes you can show a power point, and if you are going to do that I suggest you contact the Public Information Officer Brenda Viola ahead of time in case they need to load it for you. When it comes up to Planning Commission I think you can do the same - I saw Bob Duncan this evening at the committee meetings, and I know he is going to get back to you soon - he was just swamped getting ready for this evening's meetings. You can also check with him about the power point thing. As I understand it (unless they change it), groups can speak at public privilege for 5 minutes - now when the lighting is an actual agenda item you can also speak after the item is presented and they take PUBLIC comment. being organized is really good and just remember that you all have a right to speak to your heart on this.
Check with your commissioner as to when it is coming on the agenda FORMERLY, but don't forgoe any opportunity to speak before it is listed - that's where public privilege to the floor comes in. And remember, while many commissioners will speak on behalf of their constituents, the voices best heard are always your own.
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L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers/Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains.–Jean Jacques Rosseau. The Social Contract, 1762
I don't know who up here posts from ArdWood Civic, but if you don't hear from someone try giving Eric Lowry or Alex McDonnell a call.
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L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers/Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains.–Jean Jacques Rosseau. The Social Contract, 1762
And no one mentioned that the glow is 'the glow of money'. They need to turn the lights off by 8pm or 9pm at the latest.
11PM is way too late ... I have nothing bad to say about the dealership or their service, but this is about respecting the neighbors and the township...
I hear Wynnewood residents are definitely undone by the Hollywood Bowl-like lights over at the former Annenberg Estate, AKA Jeffrey Lurie's house?
Apparently Jeffrey & Christina Lurie’s tennis facility lit up at night is quite a bright site to behold? And the Township doesn’t want to take them on, which seems to give them free reign to do whatever they please? And that these people are described by neighbors as "abrasive, pushy, and nasty"? They don't care about their neighbors? That they make the dude who knocked down La Ronda look like a choir boy?
Any takers on this topic?
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L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers/Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains.–Jean Jacques Rosseau. The Social Contract, 1762
I have not been following what the Lurie's are up to as our social circles don't cross paths.
I will say Walter and Lee were gracious neighbors. My mother and Lee working on the garden at Inwood was about as much of a ruckus as you would find there on a Sunday afternoon and their parties were always reserved and never bothered the neighbors.
Even when Walter had various presidents over to visit the security was never a bother.
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Brotherhood of Thieves ~ As we must account for every idle word, so must we account for every idle silence.
You are right about the Annenbergs. My mother worked on things with them for Annenberg Center when I was growing up and they were nice people. I think the biggest ruckus that occured in their day was when I think some of the gardens went to a mini golf course or something for a while. Remember that?
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L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers/Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains.–Jean Jacques Rosseau. The Social Contract, 1762
Yep, despite being one of the wealthiest individuals in the world, Walter could not get into any local golf clubs back in the day because he was Jewish.
So, he decided to put three fairways and greens on his property, and I don't blame him in the least.
He also built a wonderful 18 hole golf course at his west coast home Sunnylands in Rancho Mirage.
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Brotherhood of Thieves ~ As we must account for every idle word, so must we account for every idle silence.
Okay, sounds like it's time for another poll!
Thank you for posting the poll! I am going to direct the other neighbors to this website.
I just wanted to let everyone know that the issue of the Ardmore Toyota Facade will be send by the Planning Board on April 5, 2010. If you agree that this facade is ugly, you might want to come out and share your feelings.
Valerie, thanks for the information. You can add the meeting to the SAC event calendar. See "Add New Event" link on the "User Menu." User Menu appears after one logs in.
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Planning Commission
Regular Monthly Meeting
Date: 4/5/2010
Time: 6:30 PM
Location: Township Administration Bldg - 2nd Floor Board Room
75 East Lancaster Ave
Ardmore, Pennsylvania 19003-2323
Item # 5 on Agenda:
- "AMENDMENT PLAN - 213 E. Lancaster Avenue, Ardmore, Ardmore Toyota, LD# 3501AA, Ward 8.
A proposal to illuminate a portion of the existing façade of the building."
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Click to view results of SAC poll on Toyota's lighting proposal.
That link appears to no longer work; a casualty of the Drupal upgrade.
Just vote on the poll, and subsequent visits to the page should show the results.
I am not familiar with Lower Merion's sign ordinances, but in Radnor I would argue, that this is potentially be a violation the sign ordinance since the integrated lighting and logo, as a unit, make up the dealership's "sign".
A determination would have to be made be to see if they have enough frontage to allow for a sign of that size (doubt it). No matter what, the Design Review Board would have the authority to put reasonable restrictions on the dealership to mitigate its negative impact.
Right now, the township is not treating it as a sign, but tonight we are planning on making that argument. Plymouth Township called Conicelli Toyota's a sign. They needs a variance to light their. We have that documentation.
Looking at the pix it is clearly designed to act as a giant "sign"and should be treated as such.
We had a weird case awhile ago where the the township tried to make the case that an over sized American flag was a "sign" since it was displayed on a flag pole at a flag shop. It seemed like a stretch to me. The flag shop appealed, I don't recall the result.
The Planning Commission reccommended to REJECT is what I think happened at the end last night. Ardmore Toyota's attorney, Ross Weiss, threw a bit of a hissy fit, and the Pauls did not show up to the meeting. I am glad it came out that there had been no meaningful community meetings between Toyota and the neighbors - just some sort of a site visit once to a couple of houses - which is not the same as sitting down in a room with the neighbors and trying to work something out. Also, while they might have put shades or whatever on the lights on the used car lot, photos from the neighbors' presentation clearly demonstrated how the poles are way too tall, which is part of the problem. I hope neighbors (who presented themselves very well) will load their power point presentation on SCRIBD and then post for everyone to see - I think it is important.
Jane Dellheim, their commissioner, was NOT present at the meeting, but then again neither was Steve Lindner for his constituents in Haverford dealing with Tom Hall's latest plans for North Buck Lane - Maryam used to come to everything regarding this and was a great help to the neighbors.
The Haverford project got tabled for a month.
Also interesting is someone told me this morning that Toyota's facade was lit up like the 4th of July last night late? Around 1 a.m.? Is this true and are their photos and how is THAT right? And if they could throw a switch last night, why not over the weekend?
It is a disgrace that Dellheim was not there. She would not see this as an important issue (even though it is for her constituents), plus Reed did not tell her to be there - and no doubt Lindner is learning well from Dellheim and Reed.
You don't work for the citizen taxpayer/owners as a commissioner in Lower Merion. You work for the township and Boss Reed.
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Brotherhood of Thieves ~ As we must account for every idle word, so must we account for every idle silence.
Sounds like the neighbors were very compelling at the meeting, it's hard to believe that they won't carry the day with the commissioners too.
Toyota doesn't need anymore more bad PR. They should offer to turn off their giant illuminated sign when the business is closed or cease and desist.
Commission's no vote lights up Ardmore Toyota's attorney
Main Line Times
Published: Wednesday, April 07, 2010
By Cheryl AllisonIt’s still “lights out” for Ardmore Toyota.
In a 3-2 vote, the Lower Merion Planning Commission recommended denial of the car dealership’s application to light up the translucent white façade of its building on Lancaster Avenue.
The matter is to go to the township’s board of commissioners April 14.
Residents of homes on Chatham, Marlboro and Wellington roads that face the dealership on the south side of Lancaster Avenue have protested its lighting plan in recent weeks.
They were present in larger numbers and in more organized fashion Monday, presenting a slideshow of views from their yards and upstairs bedrooms, and suggesting that the lighted façade should really be viewed as one giant sign.
It was an interpretation that raised enough questions for commission members Brian Hirsch, Charles Howland and Laura Shell that they said they could not sign off on the proposal.
Perhaps a Toyota with accidentally accelerate in the showroom and smash through that giant facade...
No, I don’t wish the owner of that dealership ill will, but they gotta wake-up and work with the community and it does not appear they really did that.
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Brotherhood of Thieves ~ As we must account for every idle word, so must we account for every idle silence.
Neither do I wish them any ill-will (or at least no more ill-will than they visually impose on their neighbors).
The best way that I see for them to 'work with the community' is to comply with the Code and uphold the standards that the community has set for itself. That is why there is a Code.
I fail to see where the Pauls deserve any special consideration. They have been in the car business for decades, they know the area, and they knew (or should have known) the rules when they bought the property. Instead of conforming themselves to standards of the community, they seem to expect the community to lower it's standards to accomodate them.
If we are to believe Toyota and all this visual hype is essential to their "branding" and marketing mission, that says a lot about the substance of their products, or lack thereof as it were.
Please drive past the sign this weekend. It should be illuminated. Also, we are in teh process of preparing a petition. Look for us in the neighborhoods of Ardmore and Narberth this weekend and stop us and sign the petition. We will be at the Clover Day Market. I will also post the petition once it is finalized, in case anyone wants to take the initiative to send it around their neighborhood. I will also post a list of streets we have covered.
Thank you everyone for your support!
The commissioners' preliminary agenda is out for next week's planning commission -
Building & Planning Committee
All Times Are Approximate
Date: 4/14/2010 6:30 PM Location: Township Administration Bldg - 2nd Floor Board Room
75 East Lancaster Ave
Ardmore, Pennsylvania 19003-2323 Chair: Commissioner Elizabeth S. Rogan
Vice-Chairs: Commissioners George T. Manos, V. Scott Zelov & Paul A. McElhaneyPRELIMINARY AGENDA
So...what does THIS mean??? See:
Good News! Ardmore Toyota withdrew their application to light their sign. The neighbors of Marlboro, Chatham, and Wellington appreciate your advice, help, and support regarding this issue. We also appreciate that the Paul's considered our point of view and withdrew their application. Thank you! Val
Congratulations to all of you, Valerie. I really hope that a victory is yours and this matter is settled for you once and for all. It would be a shame if they have just pulled back for a while to re-strategize and "revisit" the matter in the future with a new angle and new justifications.
Fact is, the Pauls are old hands at the Toyota business. They will sell just as many without their building being visible outer space. I'm sure they will even find customers among their neighbors if they've really decided to start showing them some consideration.



















Regarding the 'community-spiritedness' of hosting non-profit events, is really altruism to bring potential car buyers into your dealership or clever prospecting?
As to the 'advertising' argument, I see some validity there. When you are peddling cars that have plastic shells where bumpers used to be and rubber bands in place of tires on many cars, it seems that a great deal of showmanship is necessary.
As to the aesthetics in general, which can't be legislated, what appears to be merely an affront to good taste during daylight hours becomes an all out assault on the senses when set aglow after dark.
"The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true." —J. Robert Oppenheimer